Opportunities for organisations

Ian Iceton podcast transcript

Employment Autism:

Today I’m talking to Ian Iceton, who’s just completed his doctoral research into the challenges of recruitment for autistic people. And he’s here with me to discuss his findings. So, Ian, let’s focus initially, what did the autistic interviewees tell you about?

Ian Iceton:

Thank you, Hilary. Well, I found the research process really fascinating. And I spoke to a lot of autistic employees, but also their managers as well. And getting the combination of those two perspectives was really interesting. And I learned a lot. I think from the autistic employees, one of the things that stood out very quickly for me was the huge breadth and range of issues and challenges that they face, both finding work going through a recruitment process, and then once in work, and whilst I’ve read a lot, actually realising just how wide the range of issues were, and the challenges, and therefore the need for organisations to think about that breadth and range of issues was really quite eye opening, from my point of view.

Employment Autism:

Was there any common thread going through any of those issues, or was it really just completely diverse?

Ian Iceton:

I think it can put them into two or three big buckets of themes. One big bucket, one big theme, was the amount and range and complexity of sensory issues that many autistic people found. And whilst I’d been aware of some, in terms of many people have been told about bright lights or loud noises in the workplace in particular being difficult, what I also found was there’s a huge range of other issues that might be to do with things that seem as straightforward as textiles or touch, or location in an office, or proximity to other people, or smells, or sounds.

One person I interviewed said listening to someone eat an apple in the office was actually very painful for them. And that was something that really, I hadn’t come across before. So, the first big bucket was the range of sensory challenges that was quite eye opening.

And then I think the second issue was, the range and complexity of the fact that all autistic people, although there are common themes, actually have differences in the challenges that they face. And therefore, you know, the phrase that we hear often – if you’ve interviewed one autistic person you’ve interviewed one autistic person – is those differences lead themselves to managers sometimes making assumptions and stereotypes about autistic people, which actually don’t work for all autistic people. And therefore, the need for it to be a very personalised individual approach came out very strongly.

And even for some of the managers of autistic employees, that complexity and difference actually was stressing them out. Many managers of autistic people were saying they wish they had more training from their organisations to help them understand the range of challenges and how they can be better at being a manager.

And then I think probably the third bucket was, if I can put it that way, a couple of groups of people who felt kind of almost particularly disadvantaged. And one of those was autistic women, who I interviewed, many of whom felt that because, for whatever reason, their masking or camouflaging seemed to be more effective than male autistic people, that actually was to their disadvantage, because it meant sometimes it wasn’t as obvious that they were autistic, and they perhaps didn’t get the support that they needed.

Then what I also found was a group of people, autistic people who who’d had later in life diagnosis, and had actually kind of managed through the workplace to a certain extent, then found out that they were they were autistic – it kind of helped explain some of the challenges that faced but they, they almost felt like they were disadvantaged because then people hadn’t been recruited as autistic people.

Somehow, again, the support wasn’t quite as effective for them, as it was for someone who came into the workplace where everybody knew they’re autistic. So, you know, they were, as I say, a couple of groups of autistic people that were felt particularly, you know, challenged and disadvantaged.

Employment Autism:

I’m interested to hear about the late diagnosed people. What were their thoughts about disclosure and their decisions about disclosure?

Ian Iceton:

Yeah, the late diagnosis people were a really interesting group. Firstly, sometimes it was what was prompting them to get the diagnosis. Quite often they’d gone through education and schooling without being diagnosed and perhaps struggled, probably because diagnosis capabilities were less strong 20 or 30 years ago, but maybe they were now experiencing something through a younger relative, you know, often it was a child or nephew or niece that was going through school being diagnosed, and they sort of said to themselves, blimey, that’s me as well. And so they were getting their own diagnosis mid career.

And then, one of the many challenges for them was, do they disclose that? Because there was almost an element of – do I feel a bit of a fraud? Am I embarrassed by it? I’ve sort of managed to get to this point in my career without formally saying anything, and will it be helpful or unhelpful? Like many autistic people, there’s a huge debate within the community, in terms of, you know, is autism classed as a disability? Well, legally, it is so that you can get protections.

But at the same time, many autistic people don’t see being autistic, as a disability in the sense that they recognise that they are different, but they don’t want to be seen as negative in any way. So the choice of language, particularly for older or mid-career people who get diagnosed, there’s a lot of things for them to process.

Employment Autism:

Was there anything that particularly surprised you about what you heard?

Ian Iceton:

I think, yeah, there’s a few things through the research that surprised me, I think one was, and this is a really strong message for anybody from an employer’s point of view, or an organisational point of view – even in the organisations that had set themselves out to be autistic and neurodiverse friendly – every single autistic person I interviewed said the organisation could do better, and was still not realising the extent to which their support was required.

Often, even in the organisations that were trying to be supportive, they were being considerably inconsistent. So it may be that one manager or one department was trying very hard, but it wasn’t consistent across the organisation. So I think that again, coming back to this thing about, it’s really important for organisations to think about the people that are going to interact with their autistic colleagues, particularly managers, and how they educate them and train them so that they can be of most support. So that was, that was really quite surprising.

I was expecting that there’ll be a difference between those organisations that were supportive and trying, and the others, and in terms of the level of kind of acceptance by the autistic people, but that no, they were saying even even the ones that were trying to be doing their job, still had a long way to go. And they were quite passionate about that and felt that, you know, there really was an onus on organisations to go further.

And I think the other big area of surprise, as I said, was right at the beginning, just the huge diversity in complexity of the condition that we know as autism was really quite surprising. You know, we’ve heard lots of talk about it being described as a spectrum. And I think that word in particular, I think, is actually very unhelpful. I think certainly, in my mind, I think in many people’s mind, the use of the word spectrum tends to kind of feel very linear, kind of almost one or two dimensional, left to right, kind of from kind of low to high. Whereas actually, it’s very clear from the people that I interviewed, that it is a very multifaceted situation.

In my head, imagine something more like a Rubik’s Cube, where you’ve got at least three dimensions of facets, whether it be communication differences, and sensory differences, all sorts of things that can play out in different ways. If you imagine a scrambled Rubik’s Cube and look at, you know, nine different colours on the side of it, every one of those faces on that cube is a different autistic person t hat requires understanding. So I think, as recruiters and managers, thinking about how organisations can be understanding, flexible and supportive is really important from what I found in the research.

Employment Autism:

What do you think that employers need to think about most then?

Ian Iceton:

I think employers, and if they really want to be good at making themselves autistic friendly as employers, have a whole series of things that they can do differently. And what’s nice is I’m starting to see evidence that organisations are doing it.

First and foremost, even thinking about how they advertised and described their organisation and their jobs is really critical. Many autistic people, although it’s a bit of a stereotype, it’s not all, but many autistic people will take a job advert very literally. So if there are 10 things listed as essential criteria, and they only have nine of them, but they don’t have one, it can put them off applying.

Now, as HR departments, as organisations, we’ve got to be much smarter about how we describe, really what is essential or what is a nice to have. I’ve worked in a number of organisations where we’ve had essential criteria such as great interpersonal skills, and team skills, and things like that, for roles where that’s actually not essential. It might be a useful benefit, but actually it’s not essential. I worked in one that was a very technical engineering organisation, and many of the jobs involved looking at multiple computer screens and analysing masses of data. And being kind of intersocial and interpersonal, sometimes it was a bit of a distraction. And the best people were somewhat kind of introverts who just got on with the job. So it clearly wasn’t essential that the job required strong interpersonal skills.

So thinking about job descriptions, thinking about language, thinking about how through any advertising process, you make it clear that you are open to candidates that might require support, and don’t put in a language that’s kind of, you know, if you meet the disability requirements, then then we’ll do the minimum we have to do, but genuinely show that you’re open to the opportunities and the real talents that autistic people can bring to it.

And then when you get into a recruitment process, organisations need to think about how they match what’s required for the job with the process they use. Often, organisations are quite lazy, and use face to face interviews to recruit for jobs, where face to face communication is not the major part of the role, and somehow use something that’s therefore quite inappropriate, to make an assessment.

It might be that an autistic person might struggle with face to face communication, they may be less good at reading body language and facial expressions, and perhaps picking up on the spot some of the nuances in a conversation, whereas a written assessment. or actually give them a job, a little task to do, would play out to their strengths much better. So I think I’ve seen evidence that organisations are starting to be smarter about the recruitment process, which they may need to think about.

And then obviously, if they do recruit somebody, thinking about how they can support them, and, you know, just in the early stages, which are important, but thinking about, would you do induction any differently, would you provide them additional support over and above their manager? Would you provide their managers support? But also on an ongoing basis, it may be that they get some way into a job before something crops up that’s new, and can cause them a bit of a crisis.

And a number of the autistic people I spoke to, described getting into a job and having a bit of a meltdown. Something had phased them that they hadn’t expected, and they didn’t know how to deal with it. And then the meltdown, probably to a manager that was not trained, would be a bit scary, and would look a bit out of the ordinary, and therefore giving the manager and colleagues some training and support on how they can provide help to that person can avoid something becoming much more of a drama.

Unfortunately, I’ve dealt with a couple of situations where an autistic person having a bit of a meltdown, and potentially lashing out at the managers caused them to end up in a disciplinary process. Whereas actually, with a little bit more sympathy and understanding, it could have actually been handled much better. So I think there are many different things that an organisation can do to be more supportive to autistic employees.

Employment Autism:

So are employers that you have talked to, more open to alternatives to interviews, or is this really still the way that employers are going?

Ian Iceton:

It’s really fascinating and I’m seeing quite a divergence in terms of how employers are looking at recruitment generally, and particularly when they’re thinking about achieving diversity.

Unfortunately, many employers are still driven by cost. And they look for kind of economies of scale, and they very much do traditional CVs and paper sorts, and if you don’t meet certain criteria can get thrown out straightaway.

Or even worse, I’m seeing organisations using artificial intelligence and computer based assessments, which in many cases when I’ve looked at them, I would argue, are almost incredibly discriminatory against certain types of people, not just autistic people, actually a whole bunch of people who don’t meet certain kind of predetermined approaches. And I think that’s really dangerous. And unfortunately, I think there’s a trend for some organisations to go in that direction. But I hope that gets called out.

Whereas at the other end of the spectrum, there are organisations that are being much more thoughtful, and whether it’s to achieve diversity of autistic recruits, or just diversity, generally, they’re thinking, how can we match the recruitment process to the skills and requirements to the actual job and the culture that we’re looking for. As opposed to are you good at a one to one interview. Now, if you’re going to be a TV interviewer, or a journalist, maybe your face to face communication and interview would be a perfect way to recruit. But if you think of the vast range of jobs that don’t typically involve being interviewed one to one by a person, then that clearly can’t be the most effective technique. And I think there are other assessment tools and processes that that organisations are starting to use, that allows them to at least get a more blended and broader chance to assess people.

And I think particularly those that are looking for autistic people have often reversed the process. So they actually do the technical assessment first. And those that come out strong and on top in a technical assessment, then get an interview. And it gives them an opportunity so that they score really high on a technical assessment, but they find the interview a struggle, at least the interviewer knows that they’re technically capable of doing the job and can work that a little bit harder in the interview to think well, how do I get the best out of them in that situation?

Employment Autism:

So if that’s about recruiting autistic people, what about once autistic people are actually in a role? What do employers need to do to ensure that their staff are successful and supported in those roles?

Ian Iceton:

I think there are a couple of things that I’ve come across that organisations are starting to do that make it more likely that autistic people are successful in their roles. We talked about thinking about language and use of words in recruitment, but also think about language and use of words in other internal processes. So, for example, assessment processes and performance management systems often presume that certain types of approach to a job are the only ways to be successful.

I was asked recently by an organisation to kind of look at their performance management system from an autistic point of view. And one of their assessments was – this person demonstrates empathy by great eye contact. And other things that were so specific, whereas actually you can demonstrate things in different ways. But the language made it very difficult for a manager to score someone that might have some of the typical autistic traits very highly. So think about language and in your internal processes, not just your recruitment processes.

And then secondly, what can you do to create an environment that is more supportive of diversity generally and autistic people? So can you put on training and educational sessions for the whole workforce, so that colleagues understand why someone might be being given a little bit of a different treatment.

I’ve worked in organisations that have staff network groups, quite often they’re set up to support, you know, gender, or LBQT, or race. Well, why not have a neurodiverse, or autistic friendly staff network within an organisation. So people who have shared, or similar challenges or difficulties within the workplace, can come together, share those. Obviously, being part of a group helps someone feel less isolated, but also allows them to collectively, perhaps then represent to the organisation things that can be done differently.

I was working in one organisation where they’d gone to this very open plan office, and they had lots of bright colours, and lots of desks, and working places out in the middle of a kind of piazza area. And the Autistic community got together and said – this is an absolute nightmare for us, please can we sit as far away and in the corners somewhere a bit darker – because all that noise and bright lights is just too distracting for them. A staff network was then able to represent their interests in a way perhaps that one individual might feel less comfortable going to their manager about. So I think creating an environment for that community can be very helpful.

Employment Autism:

How happy were autistic people to share their diagnoses with their colleagues? Because if you’re going to get a group or a network together, or if you’re going to train colleagues to support or be aware, then to a degree, there needs to be an openness and disclosure. And for some people, that’s very, very difficult.

Ian Iceton:

Yes, you’re absolutely right. What I found in the organisations that I was researching was that there was a very mixed view on that point. Some autistic people were very comfortable disclosing, and declaring, and being kind of internal advocates for their needs and requirements, and others weren’t. And sometimes it was a little bit of an uncomfortable mix.

One organisation I went to, they had a staff network. But it wasn’t an open staff network, you could ask to join. But it was on the basis that nobody else outside the network would know that you were part of it. So that it actually encouraged autistic people that didn’t want to declare to colleagues but were happy to talk to other autistic people. So some of the people in the group were comfortable with that, and some weren’t, but it was a kind of halfway house to try and allow them to have some opportunity to discuss things. But it is tricky.

I think the best that an organisation can do is to try and create a culture that isn’t just about autistic friendliness, but diverse friendly generally. So that people get confidence, that actually it isn’t just words, that they can see that minorities of any kind, do not get disadvantaged, but actually get support when they feel comfortable enough to talk about it.

I think one of the biggest challenges that I came across within my research from the autistic people that were in employment was that they often had really bad employment experiences elsewhere. And or had a really difficult time during education, and had been not supported and in fact been discriminated against, bullied on occasions, and it set them with a negative perception as to how others would receive their differences. Therefore it took a very supportive organisation to win them over and to counteract the negative experiences that they brought with them from previous experiences.

Employment Autism:

So how many of the people that you interviewed felt that their organisations were doing it right? Or at least trying to do it right.

Ian Iceton:

I don’t think any of the autistic people I spoke to felt that their organisation was doing everything right. I think many were very happy to say that the organisation was trying, and that they were really happy that they were employed where they were.

Many who said it was the best organisation that ever worked for, it was the first time they’d ever felt supported. So it was obvious that steps were being taken by that organisation to assist them.

But nobody said, you’ve got everything right. And I think that comes back to the range and the complexity. Also the fact that I think still many organisations see it that the challenge is about the autistic person, and how we help them fit into an organisation. Whereas I think what the autistic people were looking for was actually to say, how do you make the organisation flexible enough such that they aren’t the ones that have to switch to fit into them, but everybody could just be themselves. And I think that’s the kind of goal that organisations should be striving to achieve, which is not forcing the individual to feel that they’re still the one that’s having to fit in.

Employment Autism:

What was the training that autistic people felt that they would like their line managers and colleagues to have?

Ian Iceton:

I think training and the provision of training and sometimes the lack of training kept coming up quite frequently. It was clear in my research that some organisations were now starting to get people to come in, who are experts on autism and an expert on the challenges of recruiting and employing autistic people and doing briefings in organisations that were looking to be supportive.

There are a number of organisations, some of them social enterprises, some of them charity, some actually commercial organisations, but all with a real rich knowledge of how to make this work. And, youknow, they were starting to provide a range of different training provisions, some more just general education. So they would come in, and it was available for anybody in the organisation just to say – do you want to know more about autism and how it might present in the workplace. I think there was a sense from everybody that that was a really useful starting point. Because, as I said a bit earlier, the use of language, and the way you describe autism is not understood by everyone. Certainly, the range of complexities and issues is not understood by most. So just having a general understanding and being able to break the ice and open up the topic was felt to be very useful.

But I think there were also two or three other areas of training that organisations were looking at and people were considering useful.

One was specifically for people who are going to be recruiting, trying to achieve diversity and being conscious of the challenges of autistic people, giving them specific training, like all recruiters should be trained, but making part of that recruitment training an understanding of how to either react if somebody has declared themselves as autistic or even if someone is not declared, but they showed signs of that perhaps needing extra support, that they’re able to be flexible enough to deal with it. So there’s a kind of secondary piece around recruitment training.

And then thirdly, there’s an area around, specifically, the being the line manager of an autistic person and thinking about on a day to day basis, how you might adapt the normal processes that you would have in terms of looking after someone to best get the autistic person to feel comfortable and be at their best. A number of organisations I spoke to were particularly thinking about that.

What was really interesting was that they found that the investment in the manager of an autistic person was really valuable, because by becoming very capable of managing an autistic colleague, they became really good at managing all of their employees, because the way that they changed their approach and thought about, well – How do I make myself really clear? How do I make sure that the person fully understands what I want? How do I measure and monitor them in a way that’s really transparent and open? – really helped all their employees, not just those that were autistic.

Therefore, some organisations were now saying, it was almost a fast track in their management development programmes. They wanted the people they saw as future leaders of the business to ensure that they’d had an opportunity to manage some autistic people, because by doing that, they got good at becoming really great managers for everybody else that they were going to see. So there’s a number of different types of training that would be possible, that would all fit together to make a very supportive employment situation.

Employment Autism:
So what can HR teams do to help their autistic candidates and their interviewers?

Ian Iceton:

I think there’s a really important role for HR teams and functions in terms of broadening the diversity agenda to think much more about neurodiversity and autistic recruits, and then employees. In fact, in my research, unfortunately, for someone like myself as an ex-HR director with a long HR career, I was actually disappointed to see that in many cases the HR team in the organisations I was researching had not provided the support and assistance that recruiters and managers were really looking for. It actually was an area where I think HR has got a lot of work or catching up to do. In fact, in one organisation, they said that they’ve succeeded in recruiting and supporting their autistic colleagues, despite some of the policies that HR had put in place.

I think, unfortunately, there’s been a trend within HR that says that to achieve fairness for everyone, we must treat everyone equally. And you can understand to an extent the logic of that. But when that equality of treatment is actually disadvantageous and discriminatory against a group, it’s not fair – you might be treating them equally, but it is not achieving fairness.

Actually, what you need to be fair for all candidates is to not treat them equally, but actually provide equal opportunities. And that might mean treating them very differently in terms of recruitment, and employment.

And I think the more switched on, sophisticated, nuanced HR managers and colleagues recognise that. But it’s a challenge, perhaps for the people who have not thought about it in that context before. So it’s really important for HR teams and managers to educate themselves more about autism, and neurodiversity, and to think about what they can do differently in terms of their policies and processes, such that it isn’t about treating everyone the same. But it actually is trying to create the equal opportunity by treating people in a way that will give them the chance to best give of themselves and demonstrate what they’re capable of, and that mindset change, which I think is going to be really important going ahead.

Employment Autism:
So is there guidance that you could give to HR departments that would help them to do that, to help them to reframe their policies?

Ian Iceton:
Yes. I think there’s a couple of things that HR teams and functions can do.

I’ve actually produced in part of my research an employer’s checklist, which is available on my website where people can go to, and look something up. I’m sure that you will have something similar on the Employment Autism website and then there are other organisations that are now, you know, providing that kind of guidance and support, where a HR team can almost go first, and in many cases they need to educate themselves first and foremost before they start thinking about the rest of the organisation. And I think that’s a really important stepping stone.

It should be part of their diversity strategy, which is to say there are a whole range of hidden differences and diversities, that it’s becoming really clear they are equally important if you want to create a culture of true opportunity for everyone that HR culture needs to be aware of. And that might mean a challenge to your existing policies and processes but, that’s what’s required.

Employment Autism:
Is there a specific message that you feel that the autistic people that you interviewed would like you to convey to employers?

Ian Iceton:
To sum it up in terms of the messages that I got from the autistic people that I researched, what they were saying was, they feel that they have real talent and skills that they can bring to a variety of employment situations.

So first and foremost don’t stereotype them, don’t assume that it’s all a kind of Rain Man sort of specific type of skill – there is a range of skills that they have got. They want the opportunity to develop those and demonstrate them in the workplace. They ask that people are much more open minded in terms of not having stereotypes about what you look for in terms of recruitment processes but give them an opportunity to demonstrate those skills in a way that matches the jobs.

And then when they get employed, be flexible and understanding, in terms that they might need to work in a slightly different way but in a post pandemic world everyone is having to think about how we are most flexible and most understanding, because it continues to be a war for talent, but these are talented people.

Give them a chance to flourish. They might need to challenge some of the ways that you currently work, but the benefit of doing so will mean that you have a very loyal employee because they have typically had bad experiences elsewhere. And also what I found was many of them produce a different perspective which brings that real power of diversity. And often that’s the person that’s prepared to spot something that everyone else from a group think point of view might just accept. So often an autistic person is a real risk preventer in a situation, because they’ll see something that somebody else might gloss over.

So be open minded, give them an opportunity. Don’t make stereotypes. And make real opportunities to benefit from their skills and talents and actually the colleagues and the managers that work with them will learn from them and actually become better colleagues and better managers for the whole organisation generally. And as it becomes clear that the world has got more autistic people in it more neurodiverse people than we previously thought, you’re going to be dealing with customers, clients and other organisations that will recognise if you are good at dealing with that in your own business you’re probably going to be better at dealing with the outside world so it should be a win win for everyone.

Employment Autism:
That’s a really positive message to give to employers. Thank you, Ian, for your interesting insights and discussion.

November 2022